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Items used[]
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Loke's key will remain. |
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Alright, I think Loke's key should be removed from the items used. I added it back because arguments at 1:30 AM are not fun, and letting everyone decide this way is probably best, because others are sure to share my sentiments (although how many is the real question).
Loke is one of those Celestial Spirits who can cross between worlds without the need to be summoned properly. Nobody physically uses his key (Lucy in this case, as she is his contractor) when he does this (he cannot, as it is his key), so ergo its listing should be removed; Horologium is the same. Because Loke can gate hop, he is technically summoned, but his key wasn't used by anyone, as it was all of his own accord. The best example is in this chapter: Loke wasn't seen to be summoned, and for the past 347 chapters, this one included, Lucy could only summon Celestial Spirits in front her. If she had done this, Drake would've simply sniped him down like he did with Sagittarius. Loke mysteriously appeared behind Drake, although to Lucy's knowledge, but how could she summon him without Drake knowing? It is because of this that I want to see what others think of removing self-summons from the list of items used, as Celestial Spirits cannot physically use their own keys, and Lucy certainly did not this chapter. The items used section is for items that are physically used by characters; Celestial Spirits cannot use their own keys. Loke explained it himself: There is a wall between the human world and Celestial Spirit world that only the key can bridge. He himself confirmed that with a strong enough will, the spirit can break through without need for the key, something which he has done many times.
WrathZero 06:03, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
Support - Its common sense. The key is the means to open a gate in the Human World to the Celestial Spirit world. Loke, being in the spirit world cannot use a key in the human world. He opens the gate from the other side himself. His key is not used--GodPray 06:05,8/17/2013
Support - Obviously. Jakuho Raikoben06:07,8/17/2013
In response to the recent situation, it would have to logically be assumed that Lucy summoned Loke off-screen and waited for him to sneak up on Drake, hence her shouting "He made it"! as in, he reached up to where Drake was high above. Prior to that, she also showed the treasure hunters some tenacity, pretty much indicating she knew what was going to happen. The summon was obviously done off-screening and isn't a scene that is expected to be shown. Knowing that Loke had appeared that minute when it was obvious that he was in the Spirit World prior to that would have to constitute as a summoning and a usage of the key.
Now, about the Loke and Horologium Keys being listed as Used despite not actually being used by Lucy... Spirits can only cross through the Spirit World by the Keys. Whether it is casted by a Mage or whether the Spirit crossed over from their own world is irrelevant because it is the Key opens the passage way between both worlds. From all the spirits we've seen so far, whether self summoned or not, all of them have a key in the Human World. We have yet to see a Spirit that is key-less in the series and considering they have a Spirit World dedicated to themselves, it is indicated that they can only appear via a key in the human world. Since we see the Spirit appear, we know that the key created the gateway between both worlds, hence the usage of the key being listed. Why would Celestial Spirit Mages even have keys if they aren't needed to summon the spirit? That would have to be one of the limitations of Celestial Spirit Magic.
That is what the last 347 chapters and 175 episodes of Fairy Tail have indicated thus far and that's how our wiki has it written in every scenario up until now. So I would have to Oppose - removing the usage of the Key and the summon.
:Umnei: 06:49, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
- Loke stated in the battle against Bickslow that he can cross over no key needed. The key serves as the means by which someone in the Human world can summon a spirit to the Human world. As Loke said, he can cross over without the use of the key. How would he use a key that is in another world to help him open a gate in the world he is in? I think its clear that he doesn't because as he said, he doesn't need the key. I'd much rather use the canon explanation given by Loke himself rather than go with user interpretation. You say "What would be the point of keys if spirits could be summoned without them." Thats the point, Loke wasn't summoned, he came of his own accord. Lucy had no control over this. It is also in the explanation that Wrath gave, a spirit with a strong heart can freely cross over no key needed. As for Loke in this chapter. We saw each minute of the battle. Forgive me, but I did not see Lucy summon Loke during that time. If you did, then please show me. Otherwise I cannot possibly fathom a time in which Lucy pulled out Loke's key, summoned him then gave him a plan to take out Drake without 1. Us seeing it and 2. Drake seeing it and being aware because as we have seen, Lucy can only summon spirits directly in front of her. A much more reasonable explanation would be Loke came of his own accord, Lucy saw him and knew what he was doing. I think to put that Lucy summoned him or that the key was used would be to go against what Loke directly stated--GodPray 16:12,8/17/2013
- "Loke stated in the battle against Bickslow that he can cross over no key needed." No, Loke just said that he can come whether Lucy summons him or not, he never said anything about not using the key to be summoned. "The key serves as the means by which someone in the Human world can summon a spirit to the Human world." Correct but it has never been stated that the keys's Magic isn't used when a spirit comes on their own since the key is needed to open the gate. "As Loke said, he can cross over without the use of the key." Again, he never said anything about using the key. "How would he use a key that is in another world to help him open a gate in the world he is in?" Beacuse the key opens the gate. "I think its clear that he doesn't because as he said, he doesn't need the key." Again, he never said that. "I'd much rather use the canon explanation given by Loke himself rather than go with user interpretation." He never explained that. "You say "What would be the point of keys if spirits could be summoned without them." Thats the point, Loke wasn't summoned, he came of his own accord. Lucy had no control over this." True, but the key is still needed to open the gate. "It is also in the explanation that Wrath gave, a spirit with a strong heart can freely cross over no key needed." It has never been stated that the key isn't needed, just that the CS Mage isn't needed. "As for Loke in this chapter. We saw each minute of the battle. Forgive me, but I did not see Lucy summon Loke during that time. If you did, then please show me. Otherwise I cannot possibly fathom a time in which Lucy pulled out Loke's key, summoned him then gave him a plan to take out Drake without 1. Us seeing it and 2. Drake seeing it and being aware because as we have seen, Lucy can only summon spirits directly in front of her." We don't know if he came on his own, or she called him, but either way, the key was needed to open the gate between the 2 dimensions. "A much more reasonable explanation would be Loke came of his own accord, Lucy saw him and knew what he was doing." Could be, in fact she didn't even need to see him, she probably just felt the opening of the gate, or maybe he talked to her telepathically like he did at the end of his battle against Capricorn. "I think to put that Lucy summoned him or that the key was used would be to go against what Loke directly stated" Once more, he never said that.
20:54, August 17, 2013 (UTC)- Your entire argument is based around the fact that the key has to be used for a celestial spirit to come through the gate but where was the Celestial Spirit King's key when he came to the Human world. Also have you ever used a door before? Because I have never used one in which you need a key to open it from either way. Every door I have ever used had a lock on one side that required a key and another side in which you can just open without needing a key. This is how doors work--GodPray 21:02,8/17/2013
- With all due respect, you two typed too much so I couldn't exactly read it all but I want to point out that even if Lucy didn't use the key to summon Loke, the key is what opened the gate, classifying the item as used. This whole topic would also have to classify as a gray subject but we have a significant amount of more evidence to say the keys are what open the gates than we do have of the spirits opening it up themselves, when every scenario is taken into consideration.
:Umnei: 23:24, August 17, 2013 (UTC) - No, my entire argument is based on Loke never stating that a key wasn't needed to open the gate. Why the fuck are you bringing up physical doors into the subject? This is a dimensional gate we are talking about.
04:11, August 18, 2013 (UTC)- Gate or Door, it doesn't matter, they operate off the same logic. You need a key to open it from one way, not to open it both ways. You still have yet to refute the point of the Celestial Spirit King. If the key is needed for a spirit to go through the gate from the Spirit world, where was his key?--GodPray 06:10,8/18/2013
- Considering he's the king, we would have to consider how the initial connection was established between the Human World and the Celestial Spirit World. Assuming anything beyond that would be speculation so it's safe to leave it at that. And no, the "Keys" aren't meant to work like traditional keys for doors. Hiro Mashima was contemplating to use cards for summoning as well and the Magic would work similarly to how it is now.
:Umnei: 06:48, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
- Considering he's the king, we would have to consider how the initial connection was established between the Human World and the Celestial Spirit World. Assuming anything beyond that would be speculation so it's safe to leave it at that. And no, the "Keys" aren't meant to work like traditional keys for doors. Hiro Mashima was contemplating to use cards for summoning as well and the Magic would work similarly to how it is now.
- Gate or Door, it doesn't matter, they operate off the same logic. You need a key to open it from one way, not to open it both ways. You still have yet to refute the point of the Celestial Spirit King. If the key is needed for a spirit to go through the gate from the Spirit world, where was his key?--GodPray 06:10,8/18/2013
- With all due respect, you two typed too much so I couldn't exactly read it all but I want to point out that even if Lucy didn't use the key to summon Loke, the key is what opened the gate, classifying the item as used. This whole topic would also have to classify as a gray subject but we have a significant amount of more evidence to say the keys are what open the gates than we do have of the spirits opening it up themselves, when every scenario is taken into consideration.
- Your entire argument is based around the fact that the key has to be used for a celestial spirit to come through the gate but where was the Celestial Spirit King's key when he came to the Human world. Also have you ever used a door before? Because I have never used one in which you need a key to open it from either way. Every door I have ever used had a lock on one side that required a key and another side in which you can just open without needing a key. This is how doors work--GodPray 21:02,8/17/2013
- "Loke stated in the battle against Bickslow that he can cross over no key needed." No, Loke just said that he can come whether Lucy summons him or not, he never said anything about not using the key to be summoned. "The key serves as the means by which someone in the Human world can summon a spirit to the Human world." Correct but it has never been stated that the keys's Magic isn't used when a spirit comes on their own since the key is needed to open the gate. "As Loke said, he can cross over without the use of the key." Again, he never said anything about using the key. "How would he use a key that is in another world to help him open a gate in the world he is in?" Beacuse the key opens the gate. "I think its clear that he doesn't because as he said, he doesn't need the key." Again, he never said that. "I'd much rather use the canon explanation given by Loke himself rather than go with user interpretation." He never explained that. "You say "What would be the point of keys if spirits could be summoned without them." Thats the point, Loke wasn't summoned, he came of his own accord. Lucy had no control over this." True, but the key is still needed to open the gate. "It is also in the explanation that Wrath gave, a spirit with a strong heart can freely cross over no key needed." It has never been stated that the key isn't needed, just that the CS Mage isn't needed. "As for Loke in this chapter. We saw each minute of the battle. Forgive me, but I did not see Lucy summon Loke during that time. If you did, then please show me. Otherwise I cannot possibly fathom a time in which Lucy pulled out Loke's key, summoned him then gave him a plan to take out Drake without 1. Us seeing it and 2. Drake seeing it and being aware because as we have seen, Lucy can only summon spirits directly in front of her." We don't know if he came on his own, or she called him, but either way, the key was needed to open the gate between the 2 dimensions. "A much more reasonable explanation would be Loke came of his own accord, Lucy saw him and knew what he was doing." Could be, in fact she didn't even need to see him, she probably just felt the opening of the gate, or maybe he talked to her telepathically like he did at the end of his battle against Capricorn. "I think to put that Lucy summoned him or that the key was used would be to go against what Loke directly stated" Once more, he never said that.
Support - Even if she summoned him with the key it happened "off screen", which for me is enough reason not to list it, though I'd keep him in the magic used section.
And Lucy already showed the ability to communicate with her spirits through the keys twice so far (on Tenrou after Zoledo was defeated and with Crux before Eclipse opened), so it would make sense for her to ask Loke to summon himself so he won't draw attention. NoNickNeeded (talk) 08:29, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
Oppose - I would have to go with Umnei with this. Animaltamer7
Oppose - I support Umnei's explanation.
Choko Kuguza No Tobira ♔ 08:49, 8/17/2013
Oppose - After thinking about this for a bit, I'll side with Ummy. Even if Loke passed through the gate on his own, it could only happen because: a) Lucy had his key, and b) They somehow communicated, most likely through the key as was shown in Tenrou Island arc when the key started shining and Lucy knew what was going on. So yeah, either way, the key is a vital item. Miskos3 Message 09:48, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
Oppose - I have to side with Umnei's explainaton on this one. Wonder Talk ★★ 10:02, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
Neutral - I think that Misk has a very good point. However, since the key was not seen in the chapter, I don't think it can be added in the "Items used". Therefore, I cannot make up my mind on this one. Raven(S)talk14:00,8/17/2013
- Hm, I dunno. I think we're getting a little too technical here. Figuratively speaking, It's like someone got shot and we didn't include a 'gun' in the used items because all that we could see was the bullet, not the shooter or the gun. Miskos3 Message 17:36, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
Oppose - applause to umy for the fact bomb
14:15, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah, it exploded! and it hurt everyone who supported!
20:37, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
Oppose - Uny said it all. :)
MegaTalk 14:35, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
Neutral - I also agree with Raven. Nose Talk 16:32, 8/17/2013
Oppose' - umnei--Quoth The Raven "Nevermore" ' 17:30, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
- Tat explaination ;) WU out - Wonder Talk ★★ 19:47, August 17, 2013 (UTC)
- its an amazing explanation--Quoth The Raven "Nevermore" ' 21:01, August 17, 2013 (UTC)